Recent comments in /f/philosophy

berd021 t1_j7jzy5b wrote

Reply to comment by Dragon_Fisting in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

So it doesn't make sense that someone can make a place perfect, such that others can be there effortlessly?

I mean that if things already fit your perception perfectly then there is no need to change them. At that moment you can just chill.

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noonemustknowmysecre t1_j7jwt71 wrote

Reply to comment by TylerX5 in What makes humans unique is not reducible to our brains or biology, but how we make sense of experience | Raymond Tallis by IAI_Admin

> imagined experiences

I dunno how to explain this to you, but you're unconscious when you're dreaming. That's not an experience you're consciously having. I'm not going to be able to give you definition that includes something it ought not. But you don't like that do you? You're imagining some high-brow phenomenological consciousness which really means "soul", but in like, a fancy way. But there's no such thing. There's just consciousness that's the opposite of sleep. It's a disagreement on the definition.

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aBeardOfBees t1_j7jpqgc wrote

Reply to comment by thoughandtho in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

I haven't played for a long time but I used to experience flow with the game Dota 2. It is so difficult and all consuming that after a match which could have been anywhere from 30-60 minutes, I'd emerge and realise I'd had almost zero thoughts about anything other than the game in that whole time. It's so deeply relaxing and refreshing.

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zhibr t1_j7jnll3 wrote

Reply to comment by FrankDrakman in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

Can you provide me a source to the PFC-thing? What I've seen about flow is that it was a description of a phenomenon Csikszentmihalyi found in various interviews. Despite flow being used in social sciences, I never saw well-defined criteria or unambiguous measures for ascertaining whether flow is "actually" happening.

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Wishingwings t1_j7jjnga wrote

Reply to comment by Wishingwings in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

Also i have to add that most of the points in the article either are a belief, or an extrapolation of basic conciousness.

I will reflect on every point in the article:

  1. Action-awareness merging:
  • I don’t experience a lack awareness of myself separate from the action that i am performing.
  1. Loss of self-conciousness:
  • I don’t lose concern for the self, rather, i am immersed in concern for the self, as with any expression of individuality.
  1. A sense of control:
  • A sense of exercising control without actually trying to be in control is less of a “feature” and more of a mindset. It is the belief that you create alongside your subconscious and that you are not it. It is a separate process from flow. Flow is the connection between the two processes, to respect the back and forth between the conscious and the subconscious is this “control without trying”.
  1. Transformation of time:
  • This is a basic phenomenon that doesn’t mean flow state, it means enjoyment. You could access the flow state in the middle of a presentation and i’m sure time won’t go any faster.
  1. Autotelic experience:
  • The application of personal justified action is neurologically processed in a portion of the frontal lobe, and is only a burden on the flow state. True flow does not abide by beliefs, and you do not need to be motivated to do anything. You simply choose. I have had flow state in more moments of bad feelings than in moments of good ones.
  1. Concentration on the task at hand:
  • This is contradictory to point 3, as the back and forth between the conscious and the subconscious is done in thoughts and experience. I am allowed to be captivated and inspired by my own thoughts if i wish so, i do not need extreme focus on what i am doing. The ability to get distracted externally and internally is rather a blessing.
  1. Clear goals:
  • Clear goals are not a part of the flow state. That would impede a flow state. Flow can form anytime, any moment. It is you who blocks up your natural ability to plan in the moment. Making more plans won’t solve that.
  1. Unambiguous feedback:
  • This is beyond your control. Your feedback is reliant on your surroundings, your thoughts and your emotions. All of those come to you, you cannot expect them. What you can do, is increase your amount of choices made so there is more to reflect on - in case you do not feel like you know what to do, you only find out what you think you do wrong and fix it.
  1. Challenge-skill balance:
  • You do not ever need to question yourself about your abilities. You have all the skill in the world that you will ever need = A human body.

The flow state is not something that is exclusive to some parts of life. Flow can be found anywhere, it is a basic tool that will become an accessible tool in a very broad spectrum.

Take for instance impressionism in art. Thats literally an art style known for working with first impressions, and representing that on a canvas. I think you must pick goals that interest and challenge you greatly. Let the challenges eat you up inside and destabilise your life. You should experience hurdles based on commitment and learn to increase your capacity for taking on big goals. You should never decrease the chance to fail. Your failures teach you everything you will come to know.

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DunebillyDave t1_j7ji3go wrote

Reply to ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

It's amazing to me how people latch on to a concept like the "Alpha Male" (which was recanted by the very person who coined the phrase in the first place), or "Nine phases of Grief" (also recanted by its inventor), or "Multitasking" which has been disproved by neuroscience. We actually "switch task" because our brains can only focus on one thing at a time. These errant concepts persist for years, even decades after they've been rejected. For example, if you apply for a job, at many companies, they still ask you to take the Myers/Briggs Personality Test, which is a completely unscientific series of mumbo-jumbo questions that supposedly give the employer insight into your personality. It's based on Carl Jung's typology principles of sensation, intuition, thinking and feeling. Jung has repeatedly disapproved of the Myers/Briggs interpretation of his principles, which, in and of themselves, are shaky.

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ChaoticEvilBobRoss t1_j7jegsw wrote

Reply to ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

I've experienced flow, or Wu Wei, many times in life. Often when doing sports, writing, coding, playing video games, or even conversing. It's a wonderful state of being where you're flying along on the wings of possibility. Maintaining this state, mostly through learning how to diminish or dissolve the self, will allow you to be successful and happy in whatever it is that you do. I strive for a life that is filled with opportunities for flow so that I am filling my time with meaningful practices.

With that being said, I am able to achieve flow the best during times where I've focused on meditation and mindfulness. Being present is a prime component of flow. Presence is required to tap into the source code or magic in a moment and carry it to the next. The self doesn't matter anymore and instead, it's just what is. If you're reading this and have even considered taking up meditation, I highly recommend it.

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tbryan1 t1_j7je1iz wrote

Reply to comment by VitriolicViolet in There Are No Natural Rights (without Natural Law): Addressing what rights are, how we create rights, and where rights come from by contractualist

"i would argue it currently holds no legitimacy due to relying purely on force and coercion (i cannot build my own home and farm my own food anywhere on the planets surface ie it is illegal for me to leave the social contract as they apply to every square cm of the globe)"

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This logic is self defeating because if you don't follow a social contract then there is no such thing as ownership of land. There are no laws at all. Your implying that an entire civilization out to destroy itself so people can see what it's like to live without one. The reality is a social contract is a necessary component of a civilization, so no level of enforcement can be coercion so long as you are in that civilization.

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ophel1a_ t1_j7jb7bt wrote

Reply to comment by jamminjalepeno in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

I think you nailed it!

From the article:

>In particular, it is relatively straightforward to engage in a task that has clear goals and which provides clear feedback on how well we’re doing.

Or point number nine. I would suggest tweaking the language here a bit. I entered a "flow" state according to the criteria a few summers ago, but I wasn't challenging myself physically. It was mentally challenging. I accidentally discovered an anthill and decided, slowly, to observe them, then to interact neutrally, then to cause a little mischief. Forty minutes later, I got thirsty and snapped back into "time". As a concept. Hah!

Just some additionary information to put out there. Know your skills, and then be willing to see lil challenges in unexpected places.

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kex t1_j7jai6b wrote

Reply to comment by FrankDrakman in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

I never even learned the concept of mindfulness until I took a mid-life sabbatical and happened upon it after my curiosity reemerged about a month into the break

I was on autopilot for decades

Contemporary life is way too busy

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Dragon_Fisting t1_j7j7kt5 wrote

Reply to ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

Practicing Wu Wei is the polar opposite to trying to achieve a flow state. Flow is when your experience, skills, environment, and activity line up to allow you to perform at a high level with less perceived effort.

Trying to get into a flow state, or trying to utilize flow to accomplish something, is centered around changing things. Athletes, engineers, musicians, etc., pour time and effort into achieving a flow state. They develop their skills, they control their environments, they organize their tasks.

Wu Wei is about doing none of those things. Wu Wei is the concept that instead of changing the world to achieve your goals, accept the world as it is. A literal approach would be to say it is to not have any goals at all, to simply exist with as little attachment as possible to any worldly thing. A more flexible modern interpretation is to adjust your goals around reality instead of trying to change reality to suit your goals. You will always be in a flow state, if you are always doing the most suitable thing to be done at a certain time and place with your specific skills.

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Dragon_Fisting t1_j7j6g93 wrote

Reply to comment by berd021 in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

What you're describing is antithetical to Wu Wei and Daoism. Wu Wei isn't about making things a certain way at all. It's about accepting that things are how they are without trying to change them to fit your perception or goals.

The act of getting into a flow state is not really aligned with traditional Daoism, which is all about letting go of trying to optimize or improve.

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Ace-0987 t1_j7j5a3k wrote

Reply to ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

Flow is an often vague and ill-defined concept. And the Tao te ching has at least six different interpretations (there's a great article in the stanford encyclopedia on them). Especially when it comes to concepts from Eastern philosophy, definitions can be essential in having fruitful discussions...

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CJLocke t1_j7j506k wrote

Reply to comment by Stornahal in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

I'm a chef and I feel exactly the same, someone once described me as "relentlessly calm, even when we're getting steamrolled". I'm not calm I'm just in the zone.

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Wishingwings t1_j7isgof wrote

Reply to comment by jamminjalepeno in ‘Flow’, comparable to the Chinese concept of Wu Wei, dissolves our sense of self and transforms our experience of time. It’s an antidote to the modern world’s obsession with multitasking, but finding it depends on balancing the challenge of a task against our skill. by IAI_Admin

I believe he is wrong. By his own statement, multitasking could be a ‘task that is sufficiently complex, but not so hard that you burn out.’ How? You can simultaneously clear your mind and focus on a single task by multitasking the experience of what you are doing with sensory experiences. Especially focussing on auditory and visual experience from the external world is very effective at clearing the mind.

Now i propose a paradox. I am sitting still, doing nothing. I devote myself to doing absolutely nothing, and even thinking nothing, now that i can choose to so. The same overwhelming feelings arise when i am doing and thinking nothing, as when i multitask. I am using the principle of ‘resource sharing’, essentially multitasking, proven to enhance focus, on a complex and a simple task.

This leaves me to assume that ‘burning-out’ is nothing more than a placebo-effect. And i get it’s purpose - Something HAS to propel the human mind to think, as this is our primary tool to survival. I believe that we fear thoughtlessness, because it logically decreases our ability to prepare, which is a terrifying reality to a large portion of our brains. The long term memory and the short term memory are frightened, as they both are involved in producing short term planning and long term planning. (Edit: Note that once you are already doing your task, you have little need for active long term planning, all the planning that has to be done is very, very short term, and the conscious thought has almost no place in this moment)

This arises the question: Why is the uncomplicated, mostly sporadic nature of the flow state so laudable, but do we experience fear to invoke it through tricking the brain?

Now i have two answers; you can DM me for the long one, which separates numerical chance into two differing calculations of probability, represented as the quantum relative program (brain) and the special relative program (body), connecting at the point ‘emotion’.

Now i have to get more speculative, and propose that we are all addicted to making choices. Notice that we are only naturally motivated to think, to reflect and plan ahead. We, ourselves, choose which route to take. However you look at it, the next choice is heavily influenced by your surroundings, but it is ultimately made by you.

Especially those surroundings make it hard NOT to make a choice. You are going to die, you will have children in probably max 15 years, or you are already planning for the days that you are going to retire and need a fund. These things make it incredibly hard to sit absolutely still and do nothing. It essentially feels like betrayal to yourself, proposing an illustration of why we feel like thoughtlessness is “wrong.”

But are we crazy for it? Nah. Ofcourse we are hardwired for survival, ofcourse we are hardwired for childbearing. We are however, ignorant. Ignorant of the creative capacity, the incredible progress, the untainted love, the inner peace, and the mindful world, which is attributed to the flow state.

I hope to see your answers, and await the possibility to reflect on new angles on the subject. :)

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